Transcript of audio recording Re: Broadbent and Townsend
taped on October 22, 1994 at approximately 6:00 P.M.

Jeffrey Broadbent = JB James Townsend = JT
Tracy-Lynn Broadbent = TB Ann-Marie Townsend = AT

TB: I actually thought you were coming to help me.
JT had just asked TB to speak to the McDonalds before she dug the road up again....
TB: It's none of their business...? ?
JT: ...but they don't like the fighting.... Is there a reason to make holes there?
TB: Just stay there, don't you fucken talk to me.
JT: I've been driving there for seven years now. Why do you have to make a hole there?
TB: It was already here.
JT: That hole was never there.
TB: How in the hell would you know...You're just...
JT: I've lived here for seven years.
TB: That's seven years too long.
----- (JT leaves; AT approaches TB & JB joins) (JT joins 5-10 minutes later) -----
JT: Excuses me, now that you're talking peaceably, can I ask you what that Bible verse meant that you gave me?
JB: Frustration, Mr. Townsend.
JT: I just asked you what it meant, you know. Does it mean that I'm a righteous person or that I'm too righteous, or what?
JB: Well, you...you, you often quote, Biblical passages in your Bible and you make
Biblical references.
AT: How many did you, how many times did you do it?
JT: No, I did it once, but I, but when you put it in, what did you mean?
JB: And in person you do too, and I know in court, the last time, I understand the last time you were in court, you said, you said you were righteous.

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JT: And what does the verse mean? If you asked me what I meant, I'd tell you.
JB: Mr. Townsend, you know it, it really meant nothing, just a...
JT: It meant nothing...just a quotation that you heard or, did you understand it or did you ...
JB: Well... yes I understood it Mr. Townsend, but I don't want to quote the stuff...all I, all I...
TB: Did you understand some of the big words you used, copied from Jeff's letters?
JB: Tracy…Tracy.
JT: Okay, come on! No, but when you tell somebody something like that, you give them advice, can't you explain the advice. Can't you explain the advice? …You know, you give me a Bible verse to help me understand.
JB: Like I told you, I'm not going to tell you how to interpret the Bible, cause I…
JT: Well, what was your interpretation when you gave it?
JB: All I want Mr. Townsend if for us to both have free access.
JT: Oh, I'd like that too! … Without a great big trench there!
JB: I also want drainage.
JT: Well you've got drainage.
JB: I told you, Mr. Townsend.
JT: Where's the water gonna go when it crosses here? Where does it go?
JB: Mr. Townsend...Mr. Townsend, I told you when you told Centra that you owned this and not to....
JT: No, I didn't say I owned it, no.
JB: Well, that's what they told me.
JT: I didn't say that.
------------------------- (JT leaves for 5-10 minutes) -----------------------------
AT: See we've been here, we know how porous the ground is... like, if you put water here, it goes up by the trees….
JT: Then it comes right out in our tiles.
AT: ...or it goes down there by the swale and comes up, and all the mud spurting up like this, … like a geyser.
JB: Mr. Townsend, Mr. Townsend...
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JT: There's just a point of law that you don't know about it. You're a lawyer... why am I paying half of the taxes on this property if I have nothing to say about it?
JB: Where do you get that from?
JT: It's in section A-3l....
JB: It says that Mr. Townsend pays half of the taxes?
JT: ...of the statutes of Ontario, yes … item 9, Section 9.
TB: Oh, that's a new one, eh.
JB: Yah.
JT: Section A31, section 9. If you want to look it up you've got the reference. I'm saying the east half of this, is on my assessment roll. The east half of this right of way. I have, I got the map from City Hall.
AT: Show him the map with the thing on it. It shows … it shows the dividing line going down the middle of it... this half is on....
JT: ...our assessment roll.
AT: 160 on this half, 160 on this lot.159 on that lot and 159 on this half of the right of way.
JB: So, I'm really pissed that, that you told them not to put sod, and then you've made the road wider... Just answer me one question. ....
JT: Well I don't know where you're hearing all this from?
JB: Why does this driveway…
JT: Let's bring the people here and ask them exactly what I said.
AT: You told me that …
JT: No, I didn't say anything like that. I said they didn't have to bother with anything. I didn't give them any orders … I told them... he asked me, "Do you own it?"...I said no.... I said no, I don't ...well that's what I told them.
JB: …why does this drive, one question, why does this drive have to be four feet wider than the 4th Line?
JT: It's not!
JB: It is!
JT: Well, I had someone measure it, and they say it's not.
JB: Well, you'd better measure it again. It's 21 feet. 21 feet.
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JT: Where? It's 25 feet here because two lots are being serviced.
JB: I know, I know, but I didn't measure it here. I measured up in the narrow spot.
JT: The narrow spot if 17... less than 17.
JB: If I wanted to be unfair I'd do that, but the narrow spot is 21.
JT: The width is not an issue, nobody ever complained about the width. I was ordered to widen it.
JB: ...well, tell me…who ordered you to widen it?
JT: Harrison took me to court with an order that I widen the right of way.
JB: That you widen the right of way?
JT: Yah.
JB: Well, I, I release you from the order, because I just want to know why do you...why do you want to fill that in there?
JT: I want it level, so that if I'm walking, I step to the side … I'm not in a ditch.
JB: There's a tree there.
JT: Yah, there's a tree there, and I, I'm tolerating the tree because its beneficial to us.
TB: But you're not going to walk along this lawn are you?
JB: Just because its beneficial to you....
JT: …to all of us.
JB: ...doesn't mean it's ... it's not beneficial to me. That's the point.
JT: What...the tree?
JB: No, what you're doing.
JT: I don't see where the water's going when you make the hole.
JB: You're not allowed to do things that's to my detriment.
JT: Does that hurt you?
JB: Period!
JT: How does that hurt you?
JB: I've explained it to you.
JT: Well, I don't understand it. You, you can explain it with somebody else, and help them to make me understand it then, because I can't see how the water's going to go up the hill?
JB: I'll tell you something else, Mr. Townsend.
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JT: I can't see the water going up the hill there.
JB: I'll tell you something else, Mr. Townsend...is the fact, that this is now so much wider…it looks awful. It was so much nicer when there was grass across there.
JT: Then let's make it narrower. I have no objections, as long as I have a clear opening on this side. Do what you want there...It's not bothering me.
JB: So the people at Centra are wrong then, you didn't tell them that?
JT: I did not tell them anything.
JB: They must be wrong. Okay, they said they'd come back and put the, the soil and sod down, so I'll get them to come back and do that.
JT: I don't mind what you do, as long as you leave me clear access here.
JB: Fine! Fine.
AT: Well I mean, it's not flat anyway so how can it be a road?
JT: Well it should be flat.
AT: It’s going up hill.
JB: I told the Conservation Authority...I don't have any problem with this built … being built up. I just need some guarantee of the drainage and I'll need a drainage easement ... an easement.
JT: Well, you can put a pipe under it! You want me to supply you with a pipe?
JB: First, first you …first you're telling us and you're telling Conservation Authority that it should be drained over your swale.
JT: No, no I didn't say that. I said that was the shortest route. If you want to go on your own… I offered that when you first moved in, do you remember? You looked at it and you said, "no thanks."
AT: Jim, Jim, yes but, according to the City, when they gave you the, the permit, you had to provide drainage.
JT: That's not for pumped water, that's for surface water.
AT: Well, what's the difference? It goes into the thing (swale) from the surface.
JB: I don't mind, I don't mind just as long... I, I just want to make sure that my.... Your house is beautifully up, and you've built it well. The people that built this house didn't build it high enough and there's a real problem with the water in the basement... that's all I want is drainage...
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AT: When they dug it they, they dug it in Sept, in September and it rained in November and they were all joking and saying, "we should put a swimming pool in", cause it was too low.
JB: Yah. I'm not surprised.... I gather you're a builder and you know what you're doing?
JT: Yah.
JB: These people... put it in too low.
JT: Did I ever stop you from draining water there? I never said you can't do it.
AT: It hasn't rained yet.
JT: As a matter of fact, I took you through my lot and said I prefer it going that way, if you don't mind.
JB: Well then, that's fine, we'll do it that way. We'll build this up.
JT: Yah...and then there's nothing to fight about.
JB: But, like I said, I'll need, I'll need a drainage easement.
JT: I'm not giving any easement. I'm just telling you, you can do it. You can do it as long as you want. I'm not going to put my property under bondage.
AT: Yah but, you can understand what he means... what...what...
JT: Do you think I'm going to plug it up on you?
AT: Yah. . Okay...
JB: Well, what about the next owner, that's all, I mean what about the next owner.
JT: What about the last 30 years...There's never been a problem.
JB: I have nothing to do with that.
AT: No, no, O.K....suppose you have a… get angry…at him...then what are you going to do? He can't, he can’t go there any more?
JT: No, I don't get angry at people...If I'm harassed enough yes.
JB: What about the next people though? What if, what if you sell and the next people come along and they decide to do it...that's all I'm concerned about.
JT: Well then, then you can revert.
JB: I don't, I don't care...
JT: Then you can revert to the way you were going to do it, if they don't mind … you digging a trench.
AT: If he takes, if he goes to the bother of putting a pipe in from his house and digging

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a trench to go down.
JT: I've, I've got it dug out for you, and I've also got it lower at the other end, so you don't even have to have the water in your front yard, you can bring it out of your own view.
AT: No, but, just a minute. Suppose he goes to the trouble of putting in a drainage pipe that, that leads to here, okay? And they like he says, the next person that moves in here says no you can't do that, and you say, oh, then you can he can go over there then. So he has to go to all the trouble of digging another drainage ditch this way?
JT: Lets put it in the practical sense now. When this flood period comes and it will be here in about two weeks or less, everything is flooded and nobody cares where the water goes...its not a big issue It doesn't require an easement in writing or anything! And if the water I'm sure, you pump on your lawn, just happened to float down there, the people who bought my house wouldn't even notice it, and they wouldn't even care. We've, we've put up with this for, for how many years? Seven years with Harrison draining through our lot. Did we ever stop him! Never! We never ever told him he couldn't do it.
JB: I don't, I don't understand the problem with that. I'm not asking for an easement that would allow me to put a pipe or anything.
JT: No, but you said in your letter to the Conservation Authority that you wanted an easement.
JB: A drainage easement… there are surface drainage easements.... that's all…
JT: Yah, well I just told you, you can do it. As far as putting bondage on my lot....
JB: You know you know the law. That doesn't bind the future owners of this property.
JT: No, it doesn't, but then if you think this is the best solution, the future owners don't agree, then you can put a pipe across or dig it down.
JB: All I, all I want to, all I want to do is a surface easement for now, to be official. ???
JT: My solution is just, go ahead and do it. I, I've never complained about it...coming right down my driveway...I won't complain behind my driveway.
JB: There has to be give and take.
JT: That's what I'm giving you. I'm saying take it. Take that solution and lets get this
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level and nice and clean for everybody.
JB: No, I'm not, I'm not prepared to invest any money in, well, increasing this until I can be guaranteed that the future owners aren't going to stop me from...
JT: Well, I don't know what the future owners are going to do, but as far as this goes, I could even put a pipe under for you if that's what you want?
JB: I've been looking and I, I see that there's a nice ditch there about 50 feet down, that goes through, right through to the creek, and maybe it's all that we require, is a pipe and maybe an underground line, where it gets hollower down flat and all...
JT: Well, if you go that far from my house it probably wouldn't even hit my tile, but if you're gonna drain that way, water that sits here goes right into my basement - that's my beef - When somebody is trying and doing something that's gonna damage my house, I have a reason to be angry, and there were solutions. I told you I would, I'd like it if you went the other way…I'd appreciate that; and as far as, as another owner goes; we want to stay here, if nothing forces out, we'll be here till we die, and I don't even think you have to worry about someone else blocking you.
AT: Well, if you don't get the, if you don't get the cupboards done, you'll be there till you die too.
TB: (whispers to her husband) What are you going to do?
JT: There's no reason why you can't... I even cut it down for you. I cut the whole thing so that the water goes behind the tree. There's no problem. Why should I complain about it? I just don't want my lot under bondage. I can tell you as long as we live here...
JB: Its not bondage, its the surface....
JT: Well, I mean an easement. Something that other people look at and say...well, there's an easement on your property.
JB: Well then, just if, if I cannot have that, then if we build this up then we'll have to put a culvert in and we'll have to put a drainage system down.
JT: You mean....
JB: We'll share the costs...I mean if we're doing it...I'm not ta, you know, I have to be guaranteed drainage and that includes the surface area.
JT: Well right now the only guarantee you've got is that you're going to drain it there
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as it stands now.
JB: You know all I said to you...all I ever said to you when Centra was here, please do not make any changes until I have the surveyor look at it.
JT: Well, I didn't touch it. You can see that I didn't touch it.
JB: Do you remember what you said to me, "you can do whatever you want, because”…?
JT: Oh, not whatever I want, I said, I can do whatever is reasonable.
JB: Well, that's when it started, only when I said please don't do that, and then when I said, don't do that ...that's...It seems to me...
AT: Then you hit the switch.
JB: Yah.
JT: Uh huh, and all I did was put two shovels full on the hole up there!
JB: I have, I have a feeling if I told you to make this wider I'd have come home and found it narrow. (laughter)
AT: It could be.... maybe, maybe.
JT: I'm not going to argue with psychology. I was just saying that fair is fair. You know, if you want to....
JB: I agree.
JT: If you want to play fair, then there is no problem... (pause) ... I think there is, there is a problem here and you do need a, a spot to drain. You, you can either drain... continue on there and make it so it doesn't go in my basement or go that way...however you want, it doesn't matter, but I'm telling you, if you put it there its going to end up in my basement and its a problem for me.
JB: That … I'm not putting it here, it already goes here.
JT: Yah, but it's from your pump.
JB: So, but it already goes here.
AT: But it hasn't gone there for seven years, and this is what we worry about, because we've been here for five.
JB: I mean, you even told the Conservation Authority that I brought a bulldozer in and took this down, and I didn't do that.
JT: From here you cut it down...you didn't build it up. You went the other way. You've
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been dragging it.
JB: It wasn't cut down.
JT: What was done?
JB: It's back grading... all back grading ...just, just like the fellow with the...
JT: That thing was covered before.
JB: Back grading. All back grading does is, is make it smooth to the shape of the plough, and you do that a few times before the freeze up and then you do it a couple of times after the freeze up and the reason you do that is so that when you come along and plough it, you don't catch the plow.
JT: Well, lets put it this way. You weren't levelling it up.
JB: That's I … I even did it this way too. In fact I went down this way and then I came back this way.
JT: Yah, but you never backed into here and brought it right in.
JB: I was afraid to back into there because I didn't want you to be upset with me. But I did throw with my shovel, gravel over here. I backed up to here and I had a mountain and I threw it over here.... I didn't, I didn't reduce the height of it. I was just trying to make it smooth.
JT: Well, that thing was covered with gravel before (indicating the exposed stump). I don't know, I saw you scraping it but you say you didn't reduce it. Fine, you weren't building it up.
JB: I went forward and cut it down and then, and then built it up. All it does....
JT: Well, there was a line there where it dipped down.
AT: Yah but Jim, there's no difference there on the log, so I wouldn't say it was taken down.
JT: No, I don't think he touched the log, but anyways, it was the wrong way. It should have been levelled up, not down.
JB: But I, but like I said, I came back this way and I, and I built it, you know. If you watch it, it doesn't take it down, it just spreads it evenly. You've probably noticed. I don't know if you noticed the texture of it Mrs. Townsend, after I've done it.
AT: I don't know anything about that. There's the Bimbo call. (indicating a whistle from the Brandt's property) We have a retarded daughter, so I'm dummy one, he's
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dummy two, and she's dummy three. We've lived with that for seven years.
JB: I don't think we've ever subjected you to that. We're not that kind of people.
AT: No, I said them.
JB: No, I know, I know, I know. I'm just trying to point out to you that even though I might have a dispute with you, it certainly doesn't extend to your family, and, and your wife and daughter. You knew that.
JT: I think the simplest thing is just let the water go where it goes. Last year it went down that way and nobody said boo. There doesn't have to be anything said about it. It’s not bothering me and I'm not going to complain about anything that doesn't bother me.
JB: I'm sure of that, but if you have a look at it here...There's a rise. How does it get over the rise?
JT: Yah, well Harrison used to change it. He dug a trench that way and then he levelled it back in after.
AT: See, don't, don't forget now, yah, yah, but the thing is Jim, you have to realize that
they had the gas, that they had the gas put in, which, which changes the drainage.
JT: Yah, I know it's changed. I know, but…
AT: They also dug the well a few years ago so that change, changed a little thing.
JB: Well, the well might have, but I, the trench, they just went a couple of feet and they filled that spot in with gravel again. If anything, that trench probably will slow the drainage from my house a little bit because the rocks are gone now. Big rocks tend to give it good drainage.
AT: Well we, we are under the impression that a lot of the water has increased since the Glengary went up. If you go there in the spring there is this great big pipe like this, (indicating with arms) and the water is just gushing out of it, and where is it going, its all coming this direction.
JB: We're kind of in a low spot here, aren't we? I guess it’s the nature of the soil too.
AT: Yah.
JB: In any event…
JT: No, the simplest solution is just to, to go over there behind the well. It doesn't bother anybody.
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JB: No, I know it doesn't bother you, but I don't need anything but a surface drainage easement, because I, I know that you're an honourable man and you'll, you know, you tell me that. You tell me that you're an honourable man…
JT: Well, we're going to be there for a long time, unless we get kicked out.
AT How, how will it hurt you to give him that, what he wants?
JT: I don't want anything on, on my deed for drainage.
AT: Why?
JT: Because it’s not right, when you're selling your lot, when someone sees easements on it, then they don't like it.
AT: But I mean… you've got a swale for it, that's the purpose for it.
JT: The swale is for surface water and I'm telling...
JB: That's all I'm asking for is a surface, not ... you know that.
JT: But I'm saying that if anyone did buy it ...If we did have to sell...they're not going to ask you where that water came from. I'm sure of that. They're not going to say,
"Are you pumping it there?" Why would they?
JB: Well, I don't understand.
JT: It's surface water once you pump it onto the surface, so who is going to complain about it? The law provides that the lower land provides the drainage. That's in the, in the Statutes of Ontario.
JB: And you're absolutely right, and right now this is the lower land, and that's the problem...that's the problem.
JT: I'm, I'm telling you that, it should be raised out of the flood plain. That was my only complaint when I first spoke to you. This is too low. There's the flood plain line there (indicating line on flower box). You see that...8 inches below that. Do you think its good to have, have it lower here, instead of higher?
JB: You know, you know that it should be obvious ... if you really....
AT: But then Jim, its just a technical thing isn't it...its just a technical thing. It may not happen within 100 years.
JT: But it affects the two values of our properties.
JB: You know, I've had had an agent tell me, that... you saw we had our wedding here, and we had a lot of lawyers and real estate people, and some have seen
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this … since its been widened...
JT: Yah. Uh huh.
JB: ...and they first, they've looked at it and they said, "What did you do". I mean, it, it doesn't look as nice as it use to.
JT: Granted, granted, I agree, I quite agree, and do you know, when they dug the trench there, they didn't have any choice but to widen it, because they just levelled it. The only thing they can do to reduce it is, bring the sod and put it back.
JB: They, they told me, when at first …I negotiated with them … they told me they replaced it with soil and sod. After it was done they told me you told them, not to put soil and sod there.
JT: No, I didn't tell anybody not to do anything. I gave no orders to anyone in any respect.
JB: Well that's n....
JT: As a matter of fact the guy asked me, "Do you own it?" And I said no! They said,
Oh, we'll talk to the owner.
AT: No, but what did you tell me?
JT: What?
AT: Didn't you come in and say that you said you told them not to bother?
JT: No, I said I wouldn't require it … I didn't order anybody to do anything.
AT: Well, that's just a round about way of saying it.
JT: Ann, I don't dictate on other people's property. I never say to them it’s my property, don't do it. I never said that to anybody.
JB: You know, if you have anything to, uh to get done on this drive, it’s that entrance.
JT: Yah.
JB: You know, I drove a fire truck for five years.
JT: Uh Huh.
AT: That thing should be, that iron piece should be turned sideways. I don't see why it can't...
JB: Well, it’s the bridge itself. There is no way that I could get a pumper through there.
JT: Not if you were coming from that way.
JB: It would be a struggle from the other way.
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JT: Well, I can bring that up to city counsel.
JB: You know if, if instead of fighting with each other about these things… if we just discuss it and come to an agreement. That's all I ask for.
JT: That's all I ever asked for. I told my concerns on day one... that this was too low, and instead of raising it, you back graded it and made it lower.
TB: Yes, but, but you guys agreed, but then when we went away you just took it upon yourself...
JT: What did we do when you were away?
TB: Well, everything.
JT: What!
TB: Gravelling!
JT: There was a little hole there and I levelled it! You moved your trailer there and I
thought, oh, they're nice people, they're going to allow me to level the rest of it.
I levelled it in and you came back and tore it all up.
TB: No, this was way before that... little hole...
JT: Yah, that was just a little pothole with three shovels full of gravel.
TB: …away before that. I remember you sat on my step, and you, and you said that you wouldn't do anything. Jeff asked you please don't do anything...just discuss it with me, because he's a reasonable guy. You agreed.
JT: Uh huh, and I didn't do anything!
TB: Then we went away, and we came back, and, and you, you, you know....
JT: I filled in that little pothole the gas company left.
TB: ... quite evident that you'd been out here tampering with the, with the driveway, and we thought, well he said he would talk to us first. Why is he doing that. You agreed to talk to us.
JT: You mean tampering is levelling in a hole?
TB: Tampering. That's my property you tampered with.
JB: What if we …Tracy...
TB: Then you agreed to talk to us, that's all we want, come to us first … ask.
JT: You think it would be reasonable to ask you if I could level in a hole that's sitting in the middle of the road?
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JB: It wasn't in the middle of the road. We can go and look at it.
TB: It wasn't in the middle of the road...come on, don't exaggerate.
JT: You can see where I was driving. I always drove up beside that tree for a long time!
JB: Mr. Townsend, there's trees right, right there.
TB: Why would you drive so close to the tree?
JB: There are trees right there.
JT: It's right about in the centre of your trailer, where the hole was.
JB: No it's not in the centre it's along the side of it. Lets go look at it. I'll show it to you.
JT: No, I have a picture of it; shows it there, when the hole was there I filled in.
JB: Mrs. Townsend can see it.... Mrs. Townsend.
JT: No, I don't know what, how it's changed now...but I've got a picture of where I filled
in the hole.
JB: So do we.
TB: But that's the whole problem, is that don't do things while we were away. Come to us. Jeff is reasonable.
JB: We just want it to look nice.
JT: So do I.
JB: The nicer this looks for the both of us.
JT: I don't mind it looking nice. As long as it’s serviceable it’s fine.... It’s fine by me.
TB: Let's be reasonable, we we're going to get a mediator, and.….
JB: I, you know, I don't care, that's, all I wanted to do… discuss it… and I know you contacted Mr. Yanni. I had no problem with him coming and looking at it and discussing it with the...
JT: Uh huh.
JB: I mean I don't really don't know the guy personally. In fact I've never met him in person. I've spoken with him on the phone. I've never met him in person, but I don't mind...
JT: But you do realize the concern should be for the both of us. This is too low, period. It's in the flood plain by too much. It doesn't help the value of our land. It doesn't
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help us.
AT: But there again you, it just depends upon what map you use... so it just....
JT: No, you have to use the latest map. You can't. There's no sense...Do you want to get the mapping changed? There's no ... well if you want to do it, do it, get another map then. Fine.
AT: Jim ...and they took another one a couple of days, years...
JB: I think your wife is right, I can't understand how they can suddenly change the map.
JT: I can't either, but they did it.
JB: You have to wonder, in any event.
JT: I've wondered about it...I've told you that. I've disagreed but they've done it and we
have to live by what they’ve done.
-------------------------- --------------- - pause - ---------------- ------------------------------
JB: How about if, uh, instead of we fill, filling that in with gravel ... why don't we fill it, I mean, I think the gravel up to the tree looks unsightly. How about, if I fill it in with soil, and put seed ...just so the edge of the road comes out to the edge of the tree?
JT: Well, that's what I explained to you before, when I had a big truck coming in, he had... See that flower box here. He couldn't back in this way because the flower box was there, so he had to get his front end over there and back in this way, and when there's sod there, he can't, because his wheels are gonna sink there.
JB: Well, he can turn around there.
JT: No, but he, he has to back in. See when I was in loading my brick, the uh, the lift truck couldn't get in because of that.
JB: Well why didn't you ask?
JT: How's he gonna come there? There's a fence there.
JB: No, I mean, we can, I have, see my drives? I have one, two three in there. He can turn around in there.
JT: No, he didn't want to turn around. He wanted to back in so he could unload the brick at the house.
JB: Well yes, but if he turned around and then pulled straight... then he could back in.
JT: Oh, he could have, he could have driven in, as far as coming in this way, but he
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wanted to back in so he could back down this point and unload. See, that's where the hassle was a long time ago. I had to do something!
JB: Well, like I said, I, I've driven big trucks for a long time and big ones, and I don't understand…
JT: Well the lift truck is about 32 feet long.
AT: Well, he, he use to drive construction trucks for his father for years...
JT: So you know how big they are. The lift truck you haul cement blocks in. It’s a long vehicle and they couldn't get in here.
JB: I don't understand how....'s beyond me. You're not expecting any in the future are
you? Instead of building it up so high, we could put a gravel base under it so it's solid and then put soil and grass over it.
AT: Well if he ever built the garage at the back he'll put a cement floor in it.
JB: If we put a, if we put gravel base under it and then, you know, two inches of soil on top with grass, the gravel base will give it support.
JT: Yah.
TB: And make it look nice.
JB: And make it look nice.
JT: Well, sure. Once it's built up enough to have a flat drive right in. I don't care. I’m not hogging the whole thing. I'm not asking for 35 feet. You're always saying, “you want it wider,” I don't!
AT: I think he just wants it wide as … the trees…
JT: I just want it wide enough for two cars to comfortably pass while they're going in and out. That doesn't have to be very wide. I think 18 feet is plenty...17 feet.
JB: Darn right. That's what the Fourth Line is.
JT: Uh, the Fourth Line is 22. We measured it...is 11 & 1/2 ...22 feet pavement.
AT: Suppose it did come up before court now and they said, "Oh, well, we'll make the driveway, say, only 20 feet, well fine, 20 feet; that means I can't even get into my driveway.
JT: It has to be 35 feet here. It has to be.
JB: Oh no, no. I think that's why it was 35 ’cause “35” is unusually wide. I think what happened was because, because of the, I mean, if you look at the lay out here, the
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entrance is at the extreme, uh, in fact, it's the corner of the lot, and then over, and it's cut short because of the, the bridge, but then at this end you have this abutting piece of, of property, uh so that yours commences over here, so therefore you're going to need obviously more than the standard; you're going to need something that takes it, some, something substantial enough to take over, to allow you to get the car in, and I think, you know, ‘s pretty clear why it, why it was done that way. But uh, and you couldn't, I mean, how else. If you were the surveyor uh, for the registrar, how else are you going to describe it? And that would give you a trapezoid of some sort.
JT: Well, did you see the original plans for this...This was suppose to have been a street. It was called a road allowance originally, and the only reason that it became a right of way was the Township would not take the road, because there was no snowplough turn.
JB: Right.
JT: But that was the intention of the sub-divider...he wanted this 35 feet wide.
JB: Well...
JT: And that print is available.
AT: In fact the property that your house is on there, the guy squatted for seven years before the Sagel's found out he was there.
JB: He's lucky he got away that long...(pause) Why don't we just mull this over and then chat again about what we are going to do?
JT Yes, I think that's the best way, just think about ... (out of tape)

END

This transcript was done by Donald James Townsend and the fact of recordings being for evidence was made known to the Plaintiffs by letter of September 27, 1994, and filed.
I declare that the transcript is a faithful reproduction of the actual wording, and does not misrepresent the facts, to the best of my knowledge. The tape is available for the Court.

________________________________
Donald James Townsend